We all know that Neil Armstrong was the first man to set foot on the moon, don't we?

Discussion in 'The Tearoom' started by classic33, Dec 13, 2017.

  1. classic33

    classic33 Senior Member

    But how many have given any thought to the fact that they never actually set foot there? The two people shown on the moon being Russians, Joint U.S.-Soviet Moon Landing. Within a year of his Rice University statement, “We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard,” in 1962, Kennedy came to have second thoughts on the Apollo program as costs rose, budgets exploded and the scientific value of a moon mission came under question. In a speech to the U.N. General Assembly in September 1963, Kennedy actually made a bold statement that is seldom repeated: he suggested that the U.S. and Soviet Union could work together to reach the moon.

    The US led the way, with Russia doing the actual landing, but not coming back. NASA & the US took full credit for the first manned lunar landing.[1]

    At the height of the Cold War, both countries came together in space. Under the full glare of the media spotlights with the Apollo Soyuz Test Program(ASTP) in July of 1975

    Consider this, the U.S.government wanted to distract the public’s attention away from the deeply unpopular Vietnam war. Coincidentally (perhaps) lunar activities subsequently stopped, with planned missions cancelled, around the same time that the U.S. ceased its involvement in Vietnam. No further manned missions, after 1975, the year the US pulled out of Vietnam.

    At the time the US were at war in Vietnam.
    April 1969
    Number of U.S. troops dead outstrips the 33,629 killed in the Korean War.
    Apollo 10 (Dress rehersal for Apollo 11), May 18–26, 1969

    June 1969
    Nixon announces the replacement of 25,000 U.S. troops with ARVN soldiers
    Apollo 11, July 16–24, 1969

    October 1969
    Hundreds of thousands of Americans take part in National Moratorium antiwar demonstrations across the country
    November 1969
    Americans learn of My Lai Massacre, resulting in major antiwar demonstrations
    Apollo 12, November 14–24, 1969

    April 1970
    U.S. and ARVN troops invade Cambodia to fight NVA-backed Khmer Rouge guerillas, college antiwar demonstrations intensify
    Apollo 13(The one that went wrong[2]), April 11–17, 1970

    Capricorn One is often quoted as being NASA's admission that they didn't get men(no women) to the moon & return them to earth.
    However view it a different way. They, NASA, got men to the moon & back on more than one occassion. But the story behind Capricorn One then changes to one of:
    We did do what we said we did, land men on the moon & return them safely to earth. But if we hadn't done it, this is how we would have done it(Capricorn One story).

    2001: A space Odyssey.
    The fact that those making the film, at NASA East, were actually receiving help from NASA at the time to make certain that what they were portraying as space travel conditions, Zero-G and importantly what it, gravity, would be like on the moon were correct. And how that gravity would effect movement. All before they had "landed on the moon" makes it seem a wee bit odd.
    It wasn't the only British help they had either, look familar, if not a little bit larger than what was claimed to have been used?

    Shepperton Studios, where 2001 was filmed received regular visits from NASA & had the nickname NASA East. You had NASA, advising NASA East, using information they had been given by the British Interplanetary Society. Which devolped the idea of both landing on & taking of from the surface of the moon, in August 1947! An idea that was copied almost entirely by NASA in the 60's. A member of the BIS was present at Mission Control, informing NASA at every "US landing"!

    Apollo 13[2], the movie by Ron Howard, managed to film in a maunfactured zero-G enviroment. Using some of the techniques used were the same as those used at NASA East(2001: A Space Odyssey, released in 68) and also by NASA themselves in the 60's. US Airforce also used some of the same technology.

    The ASTP[1] was the super powers "admission" that they'd worked together on the moon landings. NASA just happened to have devolped the docking module that allowed the project to happen, about 8 years earlier. The ASTP was the final flight of an Apollo spacecraft. Immediately after the launch of the Apollo spacecraft, preparations began to convert Launch Pad 39B and the Vehicle Assembly Building at Kennedy Space Center for use by the Space Shuttle, the United States' next manned spacecraft program. It also marked the end of US manned spaceflight until the Space Shuttle flights.

    Why send two rockets up. The third stage could easily have held a seperate payload(crew/airlock adaptor) that then travelled onto the moon.
  2. Big Andy

    Big Andy Senior Member Staff Member

    There is nothing there that suggests the Americans didn't land on the moon with Apollo 11. Its one heck of a stretch to go from JFK suggesting a joint mission to suggesting tahts what happened.
    classic33 likes this.
  3. Welsh dragon

    Welsh dragon Senior Member Staff Member

    There have beem conspiracy theories for decades. I was watching one the other week and they cited that the flag was moving which indicated that there was a breeze therefore it couldn' have been planted on the moon.

    Hell, there are still some people who believe that the earth is flat. I remember when i was a kid, there was a programme about them. I never thought that in this day and age they still believed in the flat earth theory.
    classic33 likes this.
  4. OP

    classic33 Senior Member

    When you look at the timeline, Vietnam versus the Space Race, there's a very close match. Why would NASA have designed a docking mechanism for Soviet spacecraft, eight years beforehand?

    From the ASTP onwards, russia dominated in manned space missions. Was the ASTP a "handover in the race?
  5. OP

    classic33 Senior Member

    The flags were on spring loaded poles, packed down in much the same way tent poles are today.

    Flat earth, think UN!
  6. OP

    classic33 Senior Member

    The Soviet Union were fairly secret about their launches. Failures are still coming out now. Even on their firsts, ground crews were kept out of the loop. Those involved in the placing of the first woman in space, believed it to be just another routine launch. Not being told the person they were helping was female. Visor down, limited communication once suited up(hand signals).

    Why do neither country wish to go back with a manned mission though?
  7. Sonic Budgie

    Sonic Budgie Active Member

    I don't know, maybe it's the money, maybe it's the political will, maybe it's too dangerous, maybe.......oh....hang about....


    3 days before your post classic.
  8. OP

    classic33 Senior Member

    Not Quite, note the date.
  9. Sonic Budgie

    Sonic Budgie Active Member

    Firstly the post I quoted was yesterday.
    Secondly you didn't address the link in my thread which is about Trump signing a directive to send men back to the moon, when you said the Americans didn't want to go back to the moon.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 21, 2017
  10. OP

    classic33 Senior Member

    Post I put up is nearly four years old.

    If you'd read your link, you'll have seen that it goes against what Obama had said previously. The moon was off limits, not a staging post for further US manned missions in space, and that they(America) would be aiming for Mars.
  11. Sonic Budgie

    Sonic Budgie Active Member

    On Friday 15th you said;
    On Tuesday 12th trump had signed a directive;
    “To send astronauts back to the moon” (from the BBC link I posted above)

    You were wrong.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2017
  12. Bromptonaut

    Bromptonaut Rohan Man

    While there were some late changes (eg 8 and 9 swapping roles) timings of the Apollo missions were public knowledge well in advance of the launches. The world being focused on 11 & perhaps 12 would be a 'good time to bury bad news' but it's a hell of a leap to suggest the missions were sent up specifically to divert attention.

    And by time of 13 moon launches were old hat; the media were not interested. The bit in the film where the mission only gets onto the news when it goes wrong is not fiction.
  13. Big Andy

    Big Andy Senior Member Staff Member

    Posting a screen shot of a random post on another forum is hardly substantiation of your point.

    By all means discuss your theories here but please dont drag old threads from other discussion forums in to it its not helpful. By all means link to articles that can substantiate your point though.
    classic33 likes this.
  14. OP

    classic33 Senior Member

    Posted only to give a date further back than what is possible here, posting wise.
  15. OP

    classic33 Senior Member

    As for Trumps plans. It has never been to return to the surface of the moon. It's to build a station in orbit around the moon. Mentioned in May this year. Possibly in collaboration with Russia(Who lead the way in long term stays in space. The US is sadly lacking) and/or Japan. A repeated, joint mission with a country that hasn't been there? Odd that Russian involvement wasn't mentioned when the directive was signed.

    NASA's crewed spaceflight missions since the end of Apollo have focused on low-Earth orbit. But if the goal is to explore the Universe, and to take humanity deeper and farther into the cosmic sea than we've ever gone, a return to the Moon won't accomplish that. The vision of the Trump administration, laid out earlier this year, involves a shocking proposal, to build a lunar space station orbiting the Moon. In no way, shape, or form does a lunar space station prepare us or aid us in going to either the Moon or Mars.


    ROBERT ZUBRIN May 16, 2017 4:00 AM

    A space station in lunar orbit will accomplish nothing. NASA needs to choose a rational goal. At the recent Space Foundation conference held in Colorado Springs, NASA revealed its new plan for human space exploration, superseding the absurd Asteroid Retrieval Mission (ARM) championed by the Obama administration. Amazingly, the space agency has managed to come up with an even dumber idea. In the early months of the Trump administration, some lunar advocates spread the rumor that the new president would seek a return to the Moon within his first four years, thereby dramatically making America great again in space.

    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 21, 2017
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